Panic braking, How to train to avoid it? Options

[BubbaZ-Isaac]

so, it seems that several of us who have crashed during "black october" have done so due to the same mistake -

mistake #2 - my panic reaction erupted. i was already flicked from right to left but not enough to get through the left. instead of leaning the bike more and gassing it i grabbed the front break. this stood the bike up and pointed the bike at the outside edge - the gravel. this is what i learned not to do monday at superbike school. of course, lots of luck in undoing generations of panic reactions.

so, how does one train oneself out of the panic braking response? there is no time to think.

[Admar]

Hey Issac,

It sounds like you gave it enough brakes to stand the bike up, which probably means you scrubbed off enough speed to navigate the corner. I think the key is to release the binders quickly, after getting caught off guard and using the brakes, and immediatly look up and through the turn. Of course not getting caught in those "Oh Shit" moments in the first place is even better.

As far as trail braking goes, I was under the impression that you need to use it consistently, in every corner, so you have it as an option if you need it. If you don't use it in every corner, and then get surprised by a sharp turn and hit the brakes, you aren't actually trail braking, you're just hitting the brakes mid-corner.

I think Danny made a great point about practising different braking techniques as a routine part of riding. I think I'll be adding some of these drills to my rides from now on, so be careful if you're riding too close behind me .

[NoGall]

I think the key is to release the binders quickly...
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Be careful with that. It could get you into worst troubles. If you catch yourself on the brakes when you shouldn't be, it's best to release them slowly and in a controlled fashion -- with respect to how quickly you want your front end to come up.

As far as trail braking goes, I was under the impression that you need to use it consistently, in every corner, so you have it as an option if you need it.  If you don't use it in every corner, and then get surprised by a sharp turn and hit the brakes, you aren't actually trail braking, you're just hitting the brakes mid-corner.

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If you are using brakes (trailbraking or hard-braking) constantly for non-track twisty riding, fundamentally, you need to re-think about your speed and pace. Trailbraking is not applying brakes in mid-corner. You do have to practice to be consistent. Once you are proficient with it, you only need to practice it once or twice on every ride to maintain proficiency. It becomes a tool in your back pocket that you can fall back on when you encounter a corner that looks tighter than it is.

Since trailbraking must start long before you reach your turn in, it has to be a planned action. If you have time (you do if you are able to panic brake) to realize that you are carrying a bit more speed than appropriate for the upcoming corner, trailbraking is a better course of action than hard-braking when you must slow down AND turn at the same time. Trailbraking gives you a longer window to slow down and turn... Hard-braking must happen NOW and before you TURN.

If the next corner comes up so fast upon you that you can't act on it correctly or incorrectly, you need to re-think about your street speed and pace.

Trailbraking and hanging-off (half-an-ass, or full hang-off) are skills to have. Both aren't things you should or need doing for every corner on the street. For street riding, both are tools to have in your back pocket for additional safety margins. For example, "Oy, that looks like a sharp turn. Since I'm just sitting straight up on my bike, I can hang-off to compensate for my inappropriate speed," or "I can trailbrake around the corner." Well, you don't have that to fall back on, if you are already hanging-off or trailbraking every street corner.

[Admar]

Since trailbraking must start long before you reach your turn in, it has to be a planned action. If you have time (you do if you are able to panic brake) to realize that you are carrying a bit more speed than appropriate for the upcoming corner, trailbraking is a better course of action than hard-braking when you must slow down AND turn at the same time. Trailbraking gives you a longer window to slow down and turn... Hard-braking must happen NOW and before you TURN.

If the next corner comes up so fast upon you that you can't act on it correctly or incorrectly, you need to re-think about your street speed and pace.

I would disagree that trail-braking has to start long before you reach your turn-in. From what I've read, trail-braking simply means carrying your breaking through the turn-in, up until the axis of the turn, where you begin to throttle and exit the corner.

It's my understanding then, that you can practice the benifits of trail-braking at sensible speeds for the street, and therefore have it ready in case you need it. I think this is the approach that Chip takes.

If, however, you realize mid-turn that you need to brake, then very often you panic and add too much. In that case I would still recommend releasing the brakes as quickly, and as smoothly as possible, and then try and make the turn. Chances are, if you've braked enough to stand up the bike, then you've probably slowed down enough to make the turn.

And yes, obviously if a corner comes upon you so fast that you cannot act correctly, then indeed you are going to fast for the street. I know it's happened to me recently, and I'll be the first to admit it.

[NoGall]

I would disagree that trail-braking has to start long before you reach your turn-in.  From what I've read, trail-braking simply means carrying your breaking through the turn-in, up until the axis of the turn, where you begin to throttle and exit the corner.
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Breaking through the turn-in... You do think it has to start before the turn-in. How far back, how much braking, how smoothly, I guess that depends on you. So I am not sure what you are disagreeing, or what I wrote was different.

It's my understanding then, that you can practice the benifits of trail-braking at sensible speeds for the street, and therefore have it ready in case you need it.  I think this is the approach that Chip takes.
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Did I say otherwise? Did I not say you should practice it and have it in the back of your pocket?

If, however, you realize mid-turn that you need to brake, then very often you panic and add too much.  In that case I would still recommend releasing the brakes as quickly, and as smoothly as possible, and then try and make the turn.  Chances are, if you've braked enough to stand up the bike, then you've probably slowed down enough to make the turn.
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If you are finding yourself having panic attacks in mid-corner often, guess what? There is a really easy fix. Slow down.

If you are finding yoursel blowing the DY once or twice on every ride, slow down.

Running off the road, and blowing the DY are mistakes that we shouldn't be seeing if we claim to be somewhat experienced and qualified to go around at these speeds. I would be less surprised, at this stage, to see people low-siding trying to make a turn than giving into panic. Jack's turn was nothing special. Isaac had a direct sightline to his turn from the two curves preceding it. Those are the facts.

Standing the bike-up is a result of hard-braking. It's not an indication of how much you have slowed, or whether you have slowed enough. When panic braking into a corner on a straight line, it is more likely that one locks up the front as a result of panic. Try unloading the front quickly (That is your original word. As quickly and as smoothly as possible are different from quickly.) and turn at the same time. Come back and tell us how that went.

In Isaac's case, the trail mark suggests braking all the way onto gravel run-off, then the front locks up (gravel, no traction), digs in, and that's all she wrote.

Sure, there are more than one ways to go around a corner. I don't know them all. What I do know is everyone could benefit from reading a few books on the subject. This speed thing can kill you, if you go monkeying around with it half-cocked. We all have been lucky up to this point. Three similar crash incidents and your little blow-the-DY and off-roading experience all in the same group within the same month would suggest some peer pressure from within the group. Keep stroking ourselves, and someone will die.

[Admar]

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
Breaking through the turn-in... You do think it has to start before the turn-in. How far back, how much braking, how smoothly, I guess that depends on you. So I am not sure what you are disagreeing, or what I wrote was different.
[/quote]

I am disagreeing that it has to happen long before turn-in. It just has to happen before you turn-in the bike, and continue until the apex of the turn.

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
Did I say otherwise? Did I not say you should practice it and have it in the back of your pocket?
[/quote]

Yes, but I think for it to become more instinctual, you need to use it on a regular basis. It's all about muscle memory.

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
If you are finding yourself having panic attacks in mid-corner often, guess what? There is a really easy fix. Slow down.
[/quote]

Absolutely .

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
If you are finding yoursel blowing the DY once or twice on every ride, slow down.
[/quote]

I don't think you're refering to me, but if you are, you should know I've crossed the DY twice in one year. Not twice in one ride. And actually, I've rarely seen anyone else cross the line in all of our group riding over the past year. This seems like a pretty sane group of riders, and that's why I ride with them .

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
Running off the road, and blowing the DY are mistakes that we shouldn't be seeing if we claim to be somewhat experienced and qualified to go around at these speeds. I would be less surprised, at this stage, to see people low-siding trying to make a turn than giving into panic. Jack's turn was nothing special. Isaac had a direct sightline to his turn from the two curves preceding it. Those are the facts.
[/quote]

Yes, those are the facts, and I believe everyone has taken full responsibilty for them.

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
Standing the bike-up is a result of hard-braking. It's not an indication of how much you have slowed, or whether you have slowed enough. When panic braking into a corner on a straight line, it is more likely that one locks up the front as a result of panic.
[/quote]

I've modulated the front brake mid-corner, and the bike does not stand up, rather it tends to drift wide. I would say that if you're braking hard enough to stand up the bike, then most likely you've slowed down enough to make the turn. That is if you can get off the brakes in time and look through the turn.
[/quote]

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
Try unloading the front quickly (That is your original word. As quickly and as smoothly as possible are different from quickly.) and turn at the same time. Come back and tell us how that went.
[/quote]

Now I know getting off the brakes qickly is not the recommended way, but if you're going less than 20 miles an hour at that point (the speed at which Matt and Issac crashed) than I'd reason you may as well release those binders and give turning a shot. If there's only 10 feet of road left, I don't think you have time to slowly release the brakes. If you do, than great.

By the way, I had a similar incident at Skaggs that I posted about earlier, that was very similar to Matt's. I was daydreaming, got caught off guard by a left hand turn, and hit the brakes too hard. The bike stood up and sent me wide, but right before I hit the gravel I quickly released the brakes and completed the turn .

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
In Isaac's case, the trail mark suggests braking all the way onto gravel run-off, then the front locks up (gravel, no traction), digs in, and that's all she wrote.
[/quote]

Yeah, that sounds a lot like Matt's get-off, and that's why I was suggesting getting off the brakes and into the act of turning.

[quote=NoGall,Oct 24 2005, 09:38 PM]
Sure, there are more than one ways to go around a corner. I don't know them all. What I do know is everyone could benefit from reading a few books on the subject. This speed thing can kill you, if you go monkeying around with it half-cocked. We all have been lucky up to this point. Three similar crash incidents and your little blow-the-DY and off-roading experience all in the same group within the same month would suggest some peer pressure from within the group. Keep stroking ourselves, and someone will die.
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[/quote]

I think everyone here should read as much, and learn as much as they can about motorcycles. And to that end, I've read three books this past year, and done two track days. I'm just not so sure anyone in this group is half-cocked or that anyone is busy strocking themselves. Ride safe everyone!

[NoGall]

I think everyone here should read as much, and learn as much as they can about motorcycles.  And to that end, I've read three books this past year, and done two track days.  I'm just not so sure anyone in this group is half-cocked or that anyone is busy strocking themselves.  Ride safe everyone!
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You should re-read them books.

[Admar]

You should re-read them books.
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Hey Tom,

I've been riding with you for about a year now. In that time I've received some good advice from you, as well as Tim and Danny. And I appreciate it greatly. I think I'm a pretty good rider, but I can always learn more, and when I make a mistake I take full responsibilty for it. Even in a public forum like this.

You have never once commented negativly on my riding, so this is totally coming out of left field for me. But I must say, this passive agressive behavior is starting to frustrate me. If you have a problem with me, feel free to say it to my face. Otherwise, I could use a little less of your arrogance and some more of your compassion.

Cheers!